Feedback/Questions: Grepolis Player Council

Discussion in 'Feedback section' started by * Arci *, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:31 PM.

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  1. * Arci *

    * Arci * Community Manager Staff Member

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  2. Thasoss

    Thasoss Hera

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    I've never imagined that somebody in the community management (or whoever is responsible for this joke) would be so naive. Before you start to make a plan how the goals could be reached, there should be investigated even if it can be reached... as it simply can't. It's really difficult to find somebody who is able to fulfill his tasks, is interested... and who keeps his passion more than month. We often can see ruined local teams, CoMas who aren't interested in their work or in the game (as it just represents easy money)... a lot of people do only the things which are necessary, so they won't be kicked out. It's sad... and exactly this is something which should be dealt with in first. The local team should work well and should know a community attitude... as it's created from Grepo players theirselves, isn't it? So, they're still in touch. If they play... or, better said, they have ever played Grepo...

    Players aren't interested even in doing voluntary job which is supposed to be rewarded by a non-financial way. And now, you expect that somebody will provide a professional feedback and do other tasks 'for free'? Eh, what? Has somebody ever seen a constructive feedback on the external forums (excluding some players here on the Beta or on the DE market)?

    It's highly important to encourage players and reward them on their native markets. I don't believe that somebody will apply for... maybe some people on the 3 - 4 biggest markets. And if somebody apply for, then I don't believe that he will fulfill this role exactly how you expect he will. Players aren't able to share objective opinions... they're simply able to hate every change which could make their game more difficult.

    The concept is similar to a politicians' election... it's disgusting. We should keep on our minds it's still a game... as if you (by mistake) find a good council member, you will be forced to kick him after year. It's not wise. If it hadn't been such a silly comedy, I would have been interested in joining... but... what's this?

    Why the local teams can't gather the thoughts of players? Why they don't search for that? Or do they? So, why do you need to do something like GPC?

    Or, this and the Beta Focus Group concept could be mixed... make up feedback on the local markets, reward them on their original accounts and task them to communicate with players, prepare insights, encourage other players to join discussions (on internal and/or external forums)... then prepare in co-op with a CoMa a feedback report which could contain all possible points of view.

    Or option n.2 - bring life on the external forums which are dead in all cases and in all ways. I don't see any difference in sharing thoughts about new features on the internal forum and on the external one. Players still write same. They don't take the external forum in more serious way if you mean this. I don't have this experience. There is just problem that players are lazy (aren't motivated) to post it on the external one. I think if the game and forum systems were shared (so, if I'm logged in the game, I'm also logged in the forum), the situation would be better. A direct access if you understand me.

    GPC is a nice try but it can't work globally.
     
  3. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Calydonian Boar

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    i'm less pessimistic but i see other issues

    first, you can apply if you have only 3 months experience... no one understands grepo (or knows the history and player needs) after only 3 months
    these players might get eliminated in a vote and might not

    second, it says the council will be elected from player volunteers but doesn't address how
    on every world server (except this one from what i've seen), there has been accusations of both in game and external mods showing favoritism toward certain players/ alliances
    to make sure the "election" is fair, transparency must be present and all aspects of the process should be shown
    lines about inno/ CM/ mods having the right to reject candidates makes it seem like they are providing excuses up front for choosing "their" ppl

    third, i understand there may be some legal issues so this may be moot, but there are some brilliant minds that play this game who are under the legal age (old timer here)
    not allowing them representation is a loss

    fourth, there's no info about how this group with interact with the community
    so when a 6-month term is up and there is a vote to re-elect, how do we know what was accomplished?
    also, will you be constantly asking for new council members for the next 6-month period?
    players can't serve as mods and council members and you have a hard time finding enough of the former
    as thass said, large scale i don't see this getting pulled off but i hope so for everyone's sakes
     
  4. galanoulis

    galanoulis Manticore

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    I am really curious to see this happening on the Greek servers/market.... a corrupted market where COMA Zaitsev (at least he was couple of years ago) and his assistants were so in favor of some people that they did not even tried to hide it!!!!
    Even for big game escalations where we needed Inno to have a 2nd look into things, we were diverted back to this corrupted team....( despite communicating in english to avoid such event)

    And now those are going to make a council.....[​IMG][​IMG]

    I really do not know If i have to cry or laugh ...... [​IMG] as this attitude had forced many of the "old school players" to leave servers or even the game .....

    For example in my case I was permanently banned for using a spanish expression for "Cool".... the expression was "La puta madre"
    Even the most stupid person on earth with a simple google search could see that adding the word "La" gives the expression a positive meaning that has nothing to do with the other persons mother. This is an expression which is also touch on spanish classes.
    Well.... despite explaining with evidences to the admin that this a positive expression similar to saying this is cool.... I ended up getting permanently banned from game and support system just because they felt too stupid and unable to cope with the truth. I kept telling them that they are wrong and they should at least unban me and apologize recognizing their mistake (as mistakes can happen). I also gave them an example of an unfair ban on an english server where admin unbanned and apologized for her error. Nothing.... permanent attackable ban. Even our enemies were laughing on them and they did not even touched my towns recognizing that this was not fair.
    I tried to contact COMA via skype, email.... but nothing... he kept ignoring me.
    I send a complaint letter to Inno explaining them the facts and for the appeal I was send back to the same person that had "punished me" in first place.
    As for the COMA.... he replied back tome couple of hours after I went grey...... i.e. after the 30 days limit of inactivity......

    And this was only my case..... as there were other people just getting banned for attacking admin friends!!!!

    Or once there was a warning from admins to limit number of attacks on towns with a useless funny excuse that server might freeze..... and yes.. they DID ban people for sending attacks to enemies on a war game..... just because the persons getting attacked were their mates!!!!

    They had even entered player account and withdrawn CS!!!!!!

    And now that admin team is going to select persons for a players council????[​IMG]

    I just wonder who thought of that ..... and will be waiting to see the grepolis greek admin mafia growing!!!!!!




    Having said enough about the selection I will not comment the 3 months of minimum experience.... as most people in 3 months are still getting confused with which units we attack and with which we defend..... (I have screenshots of offensive biremes and offensive archers as well as defensive slingers and defensive light ships!!!!)



    As for Thassos question regarding "voluntary job" I would say that he is right and that most of the times when it comes to business and where real dollars and euros come into the table, having someone work for free just for the glory and a Christmas gift box will not bring the desired results.... as most of the times he will do it to show off and for the glory of been someone!!! And I do know that there will be people doing this for free (or even pay to do it) but practice has shown that this is not a solution that will do well for a long term
     
  5. Thasoss

    Thasoss Hera

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    I think you have mentioned all what I forgot in my first post, guys. Thanks.
     
  6. * Arci *

    * Arci * Community Manager Staff Member

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    First of all, thanks for sharing your feedbacks, but I think you should read once again the FAQ.

    The council members will be elected by an ingame poll, which means that the players will chose who will represent them. The support team has nothing to do with GPC.

    You're pessimistic, we're not :) We will try our best to make the infrastructure work, but then we will need your (the players) will to share your ideas. Almost every big update lot of people says that we don't listen them... well, we're giving for you a super platform to share everything in a smaller group. Smaller groups usually works better with less waste of time, that's why at school we have classes of 20-30 and not 300 :)
     
  7. galanoulis

    galanoulis Manticore

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    Arci..... I do not think that it is pessimism to tell the truth regarding the way a local admin team works....
    As long as they are able to do something, they will do it.

    For example it says 2-5 players as local reps. How is this determined?? Why there is not a fixed numbers per market?? IF I have lost my trust to specific local team , how can I trust them that what they say is what is supposed to be done? (always referring to the same greek admin team).
    For example it says for candidates:
    Sufficient activity to be determined by CoMa. As I explained in my previous post I can not trust a CoMa and his admins when he has this bad attitude. When he is not fair. When her disappears and comes back once we have passed the point of no return.


    It says
    • Reached legal age of majority in their country of residence (18/21)
    how is this going to be determined?? why would someone be obliged to send to Inno his personal data just for a game? Is Inno police, immigration or goverment office, that will demand the ID or passport of an individual to determine the age?? Because if so, then this should had been done upon game registration so as to have minors in here. Personally you will either have to take my word for it (that I am an adult) as I have no intention to provide any form of paperwork to prove myself. I did not provide them to facebook, why shall I do it to Inno?? And there are many having this thoughts apart from me as I have heard others giving up facebook for this reason.... asking for an ID.
    So been unable to prove otherwise who is who then you eliminate a part of the audience from participating in a game!! because after all grepolis is still a game!!!



    You say for ingame poll.....
    well how can someone trust the corrupted greek admin team when you are aware of them or their friend using multiple account and get no punishment?? and despite sending evidence for this you get banned just for mentioning it??? (true story)
    Are you going to trust the poll afterwards?? Obviously no!!



    It also says:
    Willing to accept the Privacy Policy for Player Council members
    HAs anyone read the last paragraph regarding Violation of this privacy policy??
    In case of breach of the confidentiality obligations set forth herein, you agree to pay a penalty to InnoGames, the amount of which shall be determined by InnoGames in its reasonable discretion, contestable in front of a court if you appeal the penalty accordingly
    Meaning that if at that point Inno wants 3 million euros because they want to, then you will have to pay.....
    Otherwise you will need to travel to Germany at your own expenses as German courts are responsible....
    And say travel to Germany as you are not referring to German residents but to a global market!!! And who is going to determine that it was your fault?? Inno obviously...
    And how much you are goign to pay.... as mentioned above Not clear as Inno has the right to ask for what ever feels like. i.e. a grey area of no information....




    And for all the above you do go voluntary!!! That is the best of it as you offer to do something for free and you end up having provided your personal data to a 3rd party company with no obvious reason (no police, no government) and you might end up having to pay them on top of it as you might be blamed for leaking business secrets.....


    And please do not tell me to trust Inno as whenever I had done so, I was always send back to the same corrupted admin team. (I always mean the greek one as all teh rest I have dealts with till now are working fine)
     
  8. * Arci *

    * Arci * Community Manager Staff Member

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    I think that your opinion is influenced by your bad experience with your local Community Manager. I already said that the players will elect their representative, so the CM has no power on that.

    If you don't trust him, I'm really sorry but I can't do so much for you. If you don't like this project, just let the other interested players join :)
     
  9. galanoulis

    galanoulis Manticore

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    I might had a bad experience from that local CoMa and his team (along with too many other players) but I had many more good experiences from other markets (EN, Beta).
    But in all cases for something to go well you always need to plan by the worst case scenario and in this case "they" are the one.

    And apart from the CM (that in that market I believe that him or his mates are going to influence results) there are still some things that might need a second look (or more clarifications)

    i.e. despite no ID is required to join the game and create an account (as there is no gambling in it) someone needs to be be 18 or 21 to participate in the council. Assuming age limit is to ensure there is a quality in the "team" there is no actual way to certify that apart from asking an ID which again is not legal as there is no law or legal reason (i.e. gambling section or sensored material) forbidding participation
    (Sorry but due to job nature I am far too strict with personal data protection)

    Or for example another "grey area" is the one I mentioned above in the Privacy policy. OK, you don't like privacy policy do not take part. Fair enough but even if you do take then some things are not clear enough and might get you into legal trouble. And history has proven that people tend not to be that careful. And as an example I can use a recent article from the Guardian (link) where people got into trouble by signing in voluntary but not been as careful as they ought to.
     
  10. Thasoss

    Thasoss Hera

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    We'll see that great interest...
    Let's summarize cons in point of view of ordinary player:
    • It's for free. I want to play for free, not work as well. Something like fulfilling player's wishes should be matter of course, not benefit which I need to participate on that. I maybe try it because I'm curious but I'm not to do it on longterm basis or invest my effort. - No motivation to do more than a moment a perform tasks in quality way.
    • I really don't see any bigger difference between players, so I don't take care who will be a member of a council which I can't exactly imagine how it works. An in-game voting is annoying for me, I vote for somebody if it quickly disappears. - The voting can't have corresponding value.
    • I'm not interested in new game features and changes until they arrive on my market... but then it's usually late.
    • I don't want to share my personal data just only due to the game.
    • If I'm so mad that it's still fun for me after 1 year, you will get me out.
    All these points reflect (in short) way of thinking of regular players. I've loved to analyse community where I've played...

    Inno firstly needs to understand how its community works before organizing these jokes. If the local teams get revamped, then the whole GPC could be useless. Being in a local team represents a great potential to be in close touch with players. However, these teams are in most of cases silent and not visible to players... it's more comfortable for them as they don't have any passion to their job. It just means routine, keeping of friends, power... and money in case of CoMas. Obviously, the Inno voluntary part is dead inside. I believe if these teams communicate with the community more often and in active and enthusiastic way, they will gather much more feedback which they can process into a usable form afterwards.
     
  11. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Calydonian Boar

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    arci, i appreciate your pov and in a perfect world this would be an assume opportunity
    i hope it works
    but it seems that many of us have seen negative things on other servers

    that being said, i just want to give a shout out to you, arci
    other servers i'm on have announced the council but have no discussion thread
    they do not want player input (a bad sign)
    this team is a step above
    congrats
     
  12. * Arci *

    * Arci * Community Manager Staff Member

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    As I can read, the very majority of comments are just about worries on lazy people.

    I don't see all those bad things in giving to the players, selected players (by other players), more space to express their opinion.

    Sharing your ideas and discussing them with some other players is not a work, is caring in something. If you care, you can do it, if you don't care... just close the forum and let only the game window open.

    BUT

    if you don't care about sharing your ideas and participating on the feedback process, you can't blame anyone if you don't like the new game features.
     
  13. Thasoss

    Thasoss Hera

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    If somebody discusses here, I think he is interested in the game. So, imo saying some words isn't relevant.
    Are you wondered if I tell you that players don't have usually enough free time to spend it on something so artifical and bureaucratic? And if it was only about discussing, then the GPC would be quite useless as it wouldn't bring anything new. So many players consider themselves as a good player, however, they're not. They don't understand game principes... and these should be responsible for community attitude representation? I'm afraid that it won't work or if yes, it will prevent to CoMas hear this feedback... because why they should deal with something which is dealt by somebody else?

    CoMas and teams don't attract players to discuss... why they don't do that if you consider it's no work? Why do you expect that players will be generally interested in if even team members aren't? I really think that organizing and gathering feedback should be an ordinary task of the local teams. It means too much responsibility and effort for regular player. I wonder who will coordinate all the GPC parts and all the players in them. GPC won't survive work on its own. No matter how you will try it to prepare

    It's firstly needed to motivate players (I mean major amount... not only 10) to share their thoughts... gathering feedback is the last step. But the GPC isn't supposed to motivate them... you want to forward this goal on ordinary players or what? The teams should have experience how to attract their community... which regular player can't have. That's why I see the local teams as the best mediator between community and devs. If they play, they still have the player's point of view, however, they can also have a professional point of view... thanks to their backstage experience. They just need to be refreshed to have generally members who have time, passion and are interested in. It's painful to admit, but it's real and sad issue.

    Note: If I mean 'you', I don't mean you, Arci, of course. In some cases.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017 at 5:53 PM
  14. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Calydonian Boar

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    i have posted here b/c i care
    i gave you credit, arci, for making this thread
    i'm sorry you feel i'm lazy and don't like my posts or my opinion
    and as such, i won't bother anyone here again
     
  15. * Arci *

    * Arci * Community Manager Staff Member

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    My replies were in general, not for you only. I never said you, Rachel, are lazy :)
    Sorry for the misunderstanding.
     
  16. Geisti

    Geisti Cyclop

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    I'm not lazy about feedback..We were just too often..Tries to make an "A" for a "U"..Believe it only when I see it..[​IMG]

    regards
    Geisti
     
  17. * Arci *

    * Arci * Community Manager Staff Member

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    If you need to see before believing... the only thing you can do is apply for the GPC :)
    And this is valid for everyone ^^
     
  18. Thasoss

    Thasoss Hera

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    I've read applies, look at the players... and I can't imagine even more that this will work. Don't tell me that somebody who hasn't been all the time interested in the game now will post professional and constructive feedback... for free. How will the voting look? I hope in options Yes/No for each candidate. :p
     
  19. * Arci *

    * Arci * Community Manager Staff Member

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    I don't get why giving feedbacks "for free" should be a weird thing. What about the game supporters or the forum moderators? They do it for passion.

    Giving feedbacks does not require much time, just a couple of minutes to write your opinion... I don't really get the problem.
     
  20. Thasoss

    Thasoss Hera

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    And that's it...
    Read this again. Do you understand? How can somebody find a moment to write something now if he couldn't (or didn't want) all the time? If I want, I don't need to be a member of a council or advisory board (sounds so noble)...

    I really like an idea of Draba Aspera on the DE forum where she suggest that Inno could get into touch with people who actively share their constructive feedback...
    Inno could say them what is needed to do and nothing of this comedy isn't needed.

    However, I still think that team members should be able to interact with their community and directly gather their opinions... not to wait when the community post something.