Opinions on paying for a beta

DeletedUser

Guest
Me don't likey

a) Customer service
The Ticket response rate is horrible, a disaster. If this were some project of a student who is doing this in his spare time, hey, no big thing. Take your time. But if you are a multimillion dollar company and have a paying customer then you really should ban a player within 3 weeks, if he deserves it, or at least answer the ticket, why you think it's no problem.

If you have a customer buying premium for the beta and you decide you want to give out an additional 100% gold, then at least give those few who allready bought the bonus too. Those people who are the first that wanted to support you are those you will keep for quite a long time, your cash cows. Not really the clients you want to piss off, by saving a few gold pieces.

Transfer gold is not possible. On the one hand you squeeze some more bucks out of the players, on the others you promise players it is allowed to give gold away for ingame events, but make it impossible. Are you that greedy?

b) Scouting
The most important thing about scouting is that you can dodge units, so that the enemies doesn't see them. In grepolis, if I understand it right, you only get a report if you had enough (i.e. more than the attacker spent) gold in your cave. So, ex post, after the attack took place you get a report. Defense against scouting is pretty expensive, espacially when you get targeted by a bigger enemy or an alliance who can easily decrease your cave silver.

c) Farm space
2000-2500 farm slots are so few, since you have to spend farm space on your own defense, transport ships, offense ships for the attack, defense ships for the 24 hour take over period and then you need ground offense too. If you upgrade your pits to level 40 or your harbor, barracks to maximum you block even more slots. Basically when you try to take over a village on another island you have around 800-1000 slots for offensive units. 200-250 chariots.

d) The wall
A level 30 wall gives you 300% defensive bonus? Is it possible to take over a village that has been fully built. if the village is just going for ground defense our force from c) will do 5% damage. Even if you send the maximum amount of cavalry with no naval support, just transport ships you'll end up with 10% losses. Take into consideration that the defender can stack.

e) The Catapults
The damage has improved, but they are still miles away from being useful. you need a full farm of catapults to get a wall down. The offensive value is horrible so you get blocked by the tiniest forces. In the end you will need to send offensive units along, so that some catapults survive, do minor damage and loose massive amounts of resources anyway.

f) Rebuild times
With miracles and a lot of resources you can rebuild an empty farm within 4 days. Basically bigger player can take over a village on an island deep in enemy territory and build up a defense or an offense superfast, and since it is superhard to take over, he will probably stay there.

g) The timing
The lack of timing sounded fun, before I spent 3 seconds thinking about it. This game shouldn't be about who has the fastest connection, who has the best mouse and who can cheat undetected the best. But ... it should be possible to still attack active players. At the moment you can easily dodge the naval forces and block the transportships, thus making it necessary to attack with totally mixed villages and those have nearly no attack power.

h) the delete/skip report button
I'm not interested in watching the same stupid attack animation over and over again. I want to skip it. At the moment when I click on next report I have a good chance of clicking delete report. The skip button however looks just the same and is miles away.

i) the graphics
They are nice, very nice, but if I play with a mobile I don't want those graphics, I want fast loading times of less than a minute per page and I want far less traffic. Why is there no "classical" overview?

j) The island grid
I have no clue where I am, I cannot calculate how far the next island is, cannot even guess it. Can anyone see those blue buttons from your tribe members or is it just me? The overview just doesn't deliver the information I need.

k) the distances on the island
As I understand everyone on the island needs the same time to reach all farm villages, which is good, but why is the distance to an active adjacent village trice the traveling time. Is there really no better solution. Is there no solution that you need only a few minutes to a village on the other side of the island, but hours to a village on the corner of the island?

l) The mythical units
I like how the cost huge amounts of mana and you need ages to get them, but why are there some so seriously overpowered (i.e. meduse) and most others suck. Why isn't it possible to support an attack on an island with your mythical units? I want to take over a village on my own island. I send over a bash and then in a second wave the colonization ship. Since it is on water I don't want to build transport ships for all my medusae, so I think I can surely send them in a second wave. No - you can't, since the defender has switched to praying to another god.

m) the miracles
I create an alliance with 100+ players, wait till around 30 of them get a temple and ask them to cast zeus lightning on the rank 1 player. he looses at least 30 buildings over night, with no warning and all he can do is to switch to athene to try to block the effects. but he will have too few mana and the attackers can just test out if he is defended by a shield and wait till he isn't. Basically you can get rid of every player if you have enough stupids following your lead

faster build times?
Rebuild time from an empty farm to a full one in 4 days. Building a village till the point were you can noble is month, maybe even 3. So of course there will be a variance in the time players need till they noble. multiple weeks even. those who are just merely ahead can easily rebuild the farm a few times?

+50% resources? Hell yeah, that's really something. Basically you get 10-12 res per pit level, very roughly, but if you get your temple up a little you can quite easily get an extra 250 res out of a level 40 pit, basically get a level 60 pit.

Is it just me or are those miracles overpowered?

n) The premium
Sure, everyone tries to make a living and this game should cost some money, as you also pay for employees and what not, but is it just me or are the prices pretty high for such a game. You easily pay more than for WoW or the new Star Trek Mmorpg. That is a decision you will have to take, since there is a few idiots like me who still pay that, apparently it's the right pricing, but what really really bothers me is that you make it impossible to have any competition in this game. If I spend 2000 Gold I can overtake someone with the same knowledge of the game and the same activity who is only paying 1000 and get overtaken by someone who is paying 4000. I want to know if I am the "best" player, which is my motivation to play this game. But if others can buy their success that is lost for me. The 50 Gold for a culture point are annoying in the beginning and totally useless later, so they don't bother me that much. The gold for the Counselors is giving you a huge benefit early on, but apart from the first (maybe the second) I doubt I will need the rest. BUT those 20 gold for build time reduction totally piss me off. Since it is important to be able to noble earlier than the rest, since you can get a few villages before the others can follow you will use this a lot if you are competetive. The funny thing is that you don't even earn that much from this feature in the late game, but you have seriously pissed off clients who want to play long term.

This is not everything, but the points that came to my mind. Please fix this unbalanced, unlogical alpha version or you will seriously loose clients. Not those addicts like me who play for the community anyway, but those who haven't established long term bonds with other players.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I support almost all Jamm points here. And I added/can add another 20. Game has potential but it is horibly delivered.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I agree with everything pretty much. We tried to get friends to join and some have already lost interest for a variety of reasons. The 2 most commonly cited reasons are

1. The ridiculous slow build up speed. It takes forever to build buildings = harder to build up troops to fight, harder to help out a friend in trouble. When you factor the ocean in, it becomes even worse. the more I play, the more I think this game does not reward agressive player enough. It's damn hard to take over a town if the player is even half competent because of anti-timing issue, attacker forced to send mixed units in 1 wave in order to try to fight both naval + land. stacking for D, wall bonus, kaput, crap catapult. Slower building also = takes longer to colonize where the real combat begins, rather than the current, perhaps pointless farming attacks where an active capable player can just spend resources and dodge attacks ad nasium. Let's not forget the problem of player quit and become an anchor. What's the point for attacker to clear a player so they can farm if their farm becomes an anchor = untouchable?

2. premium structure. Some player played a bit and quit because they felt premium is going to be too unbalanced. administrator and merchants are fine. It's the cut building time + commander + priestess + captain that are causing concern.

If enough players believe only premium users will prevail, people will quit. I play with a group of friends over the years. We've all joined a game, battledawn, paid for "premium", then quit en mass when we fought against odds and discovered enemies just outspend us with real world money and "win". It's pointless to continue, let the rich patrons enjoy their game, not us.

You will need to make a decision, is this game going to be a "luxury" good where only the rich wants and can play to win? If so, how does this game compare to other competition out there where they charge less for more?

Offer cheaper price but get more customers to pay because it's challenging, where both premium + non-premium has a chance to prosper might be the way you want to go. There are countless sales & marketing material out there, studies done. Dropping the price can actually increase profit.

Take a look at Solid State Drive. Intel has been dropping price, rather than hurting their SSD division, they're actually making more money as they discover more and more customers want to buy their high performance drive but could not afford to purchase.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Recently I tried to translate the vacation mode and by accident activated it. There was no confirmation (bug) and immidiatly my resource production went to 0 for 3 days (instead of 1) and I couldn't attack any more for 3 days instead of one (bug + bug), while part of my troops where in nirvana for 16 hours (bug).

I have paid for this beta (far more than for a tribalwars PA) and the support is non existent. Phil, the CM, just confirmed it is a bug - no compensation - not even trying to get rid of the problem. German support told me - it's just the beta. Hey, we search for bugs, we try to help with missing translations and we pay for it and do we get more support? no, less!

Is it really ok if innogames, expects us to pay for such a bug-infected game? Now on top of it they apparently plan a restart.

Are they giving us back the invested premium Gold? Hell, why should they? Well, for one they would have a beta where people kept playing despite their horrible support and they would even have paying and non-paying customers.

Are you confident or am I the only one that is giving up his account in this beta?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Jamm while I don't like to respond personally to complaints on the forum I feel you have made some valid points and I would like to address them. First of all thank you for making a well reasoned post rather than the typical form of complaining that we receive.

I would like to address the payment issue. You were offered the chance to transfer the payments you made in the Beta to the proper version of the game. After this anyone that remained here and wanted to pay were offered 200% extra. You were informed that this is a permanent Beta and would be subject to reset. As a Beta it is also the testing ground for new features and bugs. As such difficulties should be expected. If we don't test the game somewhere we would release these bugs into the full version of the game and cause a lot more problems. All of this information has been announced and as such you have been made aware of it.

As a Beta player you get the chance to try out all the new features well before the other players do. You get to be part of the solution to the problems rather than a victim. When we release version 2.0 you will get to see if well before the other players. Here you can effect the game balance and make the game fairer for everyone. Yes this comes with bugs but as you have acepted to play on the beta I don't know why you would find this a problem.

If you are paying for premium you are receiving enough of a bonus to your payments to compensate for a reset. Compare what you earn for your payment now and in the coming months to what the full game costs. It is also your choice to pay premium or not. You bought premium knowing that this server might be subject to reset at some point.

Please be aware that this game is not Tribal Wars and as such does not copy features or gameplay from that game. Some of the features you don't seem to like I feel come from a sense of nostalgia for that game. We want the experience to be very different and not just in how it looks! The following features make this game far more tactical and as such will not be changed. Also you are not accounting for some advanced features in the game:

b) Scouting
c) Farm space
d) The wall
f) Rebuild times
n) The premium

We do acknowledge that the following issues need a little change. Please bear with us while we test the features for game balance. We will be doing this with your help and I hope to see constructive posts on the forum offering advice rather than complaints.

e) The Catapults
h) the delete/skip report button
i) the graphics (mobile device)
m) the miracles

I am not sure what you refer to when you discuss these, could you please clarify further:
g) The timing
l) The mythical units

With regard to the following we have not yet planned changes. We are now becoming aware that some of the players have had problems or dislikes and as such we will look at these in detail for future updates:

j) The island grid
k) the distances on the island
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
Phil, anti-timing makes precise attack impossible. While I applaud that rule, it creates a problem when you combine with other features of the game.

We have a small farm space. You have to build buildings and army + navy.

Later on, we can specialize into different cities but the problem remains.

Based on limited test on this test so far, if you want your transports to land your troops, you need to escort your transports with your own navy.

Transports + escort navy both takes up significant amount of population, leaving you with a small amount of population to population your attacking army.

Let's say your land troops finally landed, facing them will be defender + wall. This becomes a problem with higher level wall.

Plug the following into simulator

attacker: 100 horseman, 21 catapult, 30% luck
defender: 200 hoplites, lv 30 wall.

Attacker is left with 2 horseman and 12 catapults.

Anything less and attacking horseman will be wiped out, whether it's less luck or less catapult or whatever.

Defender can afford to spend more population on navy defense, forcing attacker to spend more population on naval escort just so they can land.

Catapults are too weak, and they need escorts. With high level wall, you might as well forget about reducing it down and use poseidon instead.

In order to get around the population limit imposed inadequate mixed attacking force (naval + land), it's easier to clear someone's naval D, then you can try to send mostly transport + land + little to no naval escort.

This is when timing rules kicks in. If a player is smart and active, it is a lot easier to dodge and intercept the more vulnerable transport + land units, making conquest of a competent + active player very difficult to say the least.

This game is rewarding defensive player a lot already.

Attacking player clears a player.
Attacking player finally enjoy the fruits of labor, but it did not last long.
Soon, player village turns to gray, then anchor = no more resources.

I understand this is a different game from tribalwar, but is this intended or unintended consequences? Is this game rewarding defense on purpose and penalize attackers?

Miracles also need seriously rebalancing. I also reported a bug about hera's desire spell as it does not seem to do much on my small scale actual combat test & in simulator.

Zeus is another problem. So far, we are lucky that no alliance is large enough + organized enough to terrorize a server yet.....it's best to do something before it's too late.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Just wanted to check something.

Is it really ok if innogames, expects us to pay for such a bug-infected game? Now on top of it they apparently plan a restart.

Where does it say they plan a restart?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
For a while I thought about answering as I expected an answer and didn't get one at all. what you did is write something about the premium payment, which is a contradiction in itself and you accused me of comparing grepolis with Tribalwars. You didn't even manage to get it to the point and write in a few sentences. From my point of view you incompetent, as you don't anything alone, are lazy, as you don't do your work and you have no understanding of what is important for players. You have no real contact to the users which is the key feature of a good CM.

Jamm while I don't like to respond personally to complaints on the forum I feel you have made some valid points and I would like to address them. First of all thank you for making a well reasoned post rather than the typical form of complaining that we receive.

well, I fear you don't deserve my form of critique

I would like to address the payment issue. You were offered the chance to transfer the payments you made in the Beta to the proper version of the game. After this anyone that remained here and wanted to pay were offered 200% extra. You were informed that this is a permanent Beta and would be subject to reset. As a Beta it is also the testing ground for new features and bugs. As such difficulties should be expected. If we don't test the game somewhere we would release these bugs into the full version of the game and cause a lot more problems. All of this information has been announced and as such you have been made aware of it.

I was offered to restart on another server with far less gold (because it was spent) or stay, to play with mods and addicts who are a challenge or play with inactives on a new server. Guess, what I chose.

After that (on both worlds) the 200% bonus was introduced, not only on the beta, so the beta didn't get anything more, for testing bugs.

Are there or have there been features that are tested here? No!

As a Beta player you get the chance to try out all the new features well before the other players do. You get to be part of the solution to the problems rather than a victim. When we release version 2.0 you will get to see if well before the other players. Here you can effect the game balance and make the game fairer for everyone. Yes this comes with bugs but as you have acepted to play on the beta I don't know why you would find this a problem.

I haven't heard such an arrogant statement in quite a while, and hearing myself, who is pretty arrogant at times, this is quite a handful. Translates into: If you are stupid enough throwing money at us we will keep you paying for a bug infested game.

If you are paying for premium you are receiving enough of a bonus to your payments to compensate for a reset. Compare what you earn for your payment now and in the coming months to what the full game costs. It is also your choice to pay premium or not. You bought premium knowing that this server might be subject to reset at some point.
That is a blatant lie. Can you give me proof that the current cost structure will ever change? Cause I don't believe that will ever happen. Those prices, that you claim you will ask for at some point in the future will never work and thus inno will never introduce them. Do I get a compensation for playing the beta? No, of course not. All other players on the "stable" servers get the same bonus.

Please stop your blatant lies.

Please be aware that this game is not Tribal Wars and as such does not copy features or gameplay from that game. Some of the features you don't seem to like I feel come from a sense of nostalgia for that game. We want the experience to be very different and not just in how it looks!
Is there no real arguments you have that you need to try attacking me with arguments that I can only answer with: bullshit!
I am the very last person that wants another tribalwars and I have asked for changes in TW time and again were it wasn't stable. Hell, I even made enough suggestions that made TW what it is now, when that game was young.

The following features make this game far more tactical and as such will not be changed. Also you are not accounting for some advanced features in the game:

b) Scouting
c) Farm space
d) The wall
f) Rebuild times
n) The premium
Advanced features? Those? They are different from TW, but the problem is they are far worse.

We do acknowledge that the following issues need a little change. Please bear with us while we test the features for game balance. We will be doing this with your help and I hope to see constructive posts on the forum offering advice rather than complaints.

e) The Catapults
h) the delete/skip report button
i) the graphics (mobile device)
m) the miracles

e) either get the effect of catapults up (by at least 500%) or increase the attack power, so that you don't need to send company.
h) switch the buttons
i) I cannot see where anyone could contribute on that
m) throw all you ideas away and start again on a white page. No effects that cannot be countered, no effects that give bonus of more than 10%

I am not sure what you refer to when you discuss these, could you please clarify further:
g) The timing
l) The mythical units

g) a -30 to +30 second random delay was introduced and while I hate the milisecond timing this leads to a situation where a player can easily defend against attackers at least 50 times his size.

The attacker can either send mixed forces (offensive/defensive ships, offensive and defensive ground troops, transport ships, catapults, colonisation ship) or specialise. Mixed troops can be spotted easily and stopped very cheap. Specialized troops can be spotted easily and dodged.

With regard to the following we have not yet planned changes. We are now becoming aware that some of the players have had problems or dislikes and as such we will look at these in detail for future updates:
j) The island grid
k) the distances on the island

nice looks, but it is not possible to easily get information out of them and the transport of information is the key aspect of any game.

What you didn't address is the support you do, which is the worst I have ever seen.
I was victim of a major bug and what did you do to help me? nothing?
Is my current ticket answered? no? not even after those 72 hours? Is it that complicated to do 2-3 clicks?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Just wanted to check something.



Where does it say they plan a restart?

That's the rumor.

What bothers is a lot is due to the very slow buildup time, it's been difficult to conduct tests.

There are a lot of questions without answers on the alpha server because people in beta have not done it nor does wiki provide adequate answers to some questions.

We did some naval test and already found out naval simulator is not correct 100%.

One combat test we conducted, the naval simulator showed different result than my actual combat report.

I was attacking, I sunk defending transport. naval simulator showed defender has 1 transport left.

This doesn't even include other bugs that's been discovered and reported. While I agree this is a beta server and resets are necessary, doing so while there are still so many things we cannot test due to slow build up time, so many bugs still not fixed just does not seem to make any sense.

If beta is going to be reset, please speed up the speed, WAY up. Each naval test = loss of ships = long rebuild time just to repeat the test. This doesn't include long building construction time.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Jamm, this game is still in beta it can take a while before those things get improved.
Heck, I'm not going to defend any of the stuff you said you don't like.
You're right and in time it will get fixed, besides maybe the premium.
Although on the west they did take out some features too.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Jamm, this game is still in beta it can take a while before those things get improved.
Heck, I'm not going to defend any of the stuff you said you don't like.
You're right and in time it will get fixed, besides maybe the premium.
Although on the west they did take out some features too.

you said it...it is still in the beta. Still inno behaves as it isn't. for 2 € I don't expect anything, but if we are paying big time like we did in this game, I do expect something, not that much actually, but far more than I get here.

The cost structure, that is your problem. If there is enough people who pay, it's ok, but the service level that has to fit that cost and currently there is only one person that's doing service and that is exe himself and even though I appreciate him trying to fix the bugs it's not fair to expect people to pay for this crap, espacially not this much.

Sure a lot of players on the beta are from various other innogames and get their premium for free, but those of us who pay are furious.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Well, I could always try talking to innogames.
But don't forget it's a company, and companies do tend to love money a lot.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Now that is something I would never sign...

Me starting to rant here will cost inno far more in opportunity cost than the few euro for making me go quiet. And that is for a fair part true for every customer that is unsatisfied and is starting to talk about that.

Every lost customer will cost you in average 10 times of what he paid and every satisfied customer will get you 3 times of what you earn with him.

You can ask exe one question: What happened when Sven Schramm stopped customer service? It was the moment his game died and on the ashes of it tribalwars was born.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
Well, I doubt they would give everybody gold for nothing.
If there is gold to be retrieved it most likely would be because of an achievement IG, and would be limited.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Well, imagine you could buy gold for the beta (without any bonus). Sure thats expensive, but if the server restarts you get all gold back. On top of it you open the beta, so that every time a player is deleted or leaves a new player may join.

Some will pay money and play for a while, others will have no money, and yet others will only get a tiny amount of gold. So all of those players can test all features of the game.

If you test with game staff only (with gold for everyone) you get way too many hardcore gamers and all have gold. And if you keep asking this ridiculous prices from non-staff players you will get less and less players willing to play this bug-infested server.

Now, are you willing to have less income from a beta (!) server, but have beta testers that really try to help you, or will continue to exploit everyone.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Let's say your land troops finally landed, facing them will be defender + wall. This becomes a problem with higher level wall.

Plug the following into simulator

attacker: 100 horseman, 21 catapult, 30% luck
defender: 200 hoplites, lv 30 wall.

Attacker is left with 2 horseman and 12 catapults.

Anything less and attacking horseman will be wiped out, whether it's less luck or less catapult or whatever.

Then I would like to post following

Prior to this there was a attack that leveled the wall to 2, ok cats where destroyed but so was the wall.

bhlowmg6p8os7se8aydky9hrr7rmzvo0.png


So here I transfer the complaint towards horses that horses are simply over powered.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
what is your argument? 633 farm slots attacking 542 with nearly no wall and the losses are at 47 cav. what you did not mention is that you had 18% luck and you had allready research phalanx, unlike your opponent AND you were paying for premium unlike him. If you take those factors away the losses nearly double.

Now if it had been a level 30 wall, how many catapults would you have needed to take it to level 2? What combination of those powerful cav and catapults would have done that task? 225 catapults and 225 cav, and you would have lost those 47 cav at 0 luck. So with an attack force of 4100 and losses of 1266 slots you would have killed those puny 542 troops and taken down the wall. wow...impressive. Apart from not being able to fit 4100 farm slots in one farm...

And what would you have done if he had counterattacked you with his hoplites?
Yes, cav are the best offensive unit, but relying on them, which in the case of any attack force you will will make you vulnerable for those chariots or hoplits.

Care to look what happens if you get a few month time and gather 120 medusae. Even if you would build a full farm full of cav, the most powerful normal unit you still only do 15% damage. Mix in some catapults and what do you get? 1 damaged wall level and only 11% losses. Take into consideration that this game will make it next to impossible to have specialised villages you will probably have less than 800 slots for offense in you village. Damage? 4%

cav are powerful, yes, but how do you get a village with 800 cav to attack someone on a neighbouring island? how do you get them to take over a village when you need to defend with them for 24 hours.


I can see no problem with cavalry. A good unit, with a nice downside.
Why do I get the feeling inno listens to such stupids too much.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
That's why you have multiple towns and build dedicated villages

Hence I said prior to the horse attack there was a cat attack taking this player wall down.

With one town the defender can never reach the defence to withstand a 200 horses army. So startup of game is unbalanced as those with horses are overpowered and can clear who they wish.

There are way more unbalanced features ingame than just the overpowered horses at startup.

And getting back to the premium stuff.

You signed up to the beta and agreed to the rules, be lucky there isn't even a NDA. It's your choice to spend money on the beta or not. Nobody forces you. And you have the priveledge of knowing updates upfront.

About Inno, be happy also, they actually listen to their players unlike concurent GameForge.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
I would like to add my voice to those claiming that premium is overpowered.

Both the ability to halve building times and the olympic games can be abused by a player with sufficient cash, to the point where their growth is at a level impossible for a non-premium player to get anywhere near.

I was the first to build a second city on the beta, but I could not possibly have the points I've got in my home city without reducing build times. Now I have the option to reduce the build times in my colony as well, which I will not do. I will be using the olympic games to build up my culture level to enable more cities however. If an active player was free enough with their money, they could outgrow everyone else at an exponential rate, each city expanding faster, and the capacity for more cities also building up much faster. The only thing you can't practically buy outright with premium is more troops.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
But you can buy more troops, Perseus. If you invest in Hera's wonder you produce troops at a superspeed, thus creating 2000 farmslots in 4 ! days.
 
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